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Near the end we had 1 post and 24 hours to get full access. So with Facebook you can be Mr. XYZ and no way of proving you own in this forums case a motorcycle, and no need to have even 1 post.
I've suspected this marriage with Facebook is going to cause a big case of worms myself but apparently that's good to someone or thing. It certainly won't be for mods and admins.
 

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Thank you to everyone here! Your voice is heard. Keep the comments coming - the product team, designers and engineers are all actively reading this conversation and the insights are crucial in validating the roadmap.



So if they were invisible, would non-members see the 'for sale' ads?



It would be interesting to ask them to complete an introduction or fill out profile - as you say it could help spot the dishonest users.



I like this.
The classified was not one of the invisible forums. There were 3 forums, one came from a previous request to join forum. As a motorcycle forum, several members were setting up a week long ride. To join in or view this forum, you needed to send a request in to administration and a super -mod would give permission. This forum / thread had phone numbers, ideas of where they would stay, directions of planned travel, who was possibly coming etc. So a forum was created Member Only/ Group Ride / Other Topics--this was only visible to logged in members. The other two invisible forums were How-To Forum ( technical how to) and Technical Discussions / How To Posts/ All Models.
So a little explanation as to why these last 2 were invisible to only registered logged in members, copyright is one of them, but largely to get more people registering and posting.
The technical discussions contains identical technical info and was copied from the How To forum, it's sole purpose was to allow discussion and questions asked in reference to the How To forum which had most threads closed. Two reasons, one was you may need to go through 60 posts and 4 pages to find the answer as to what widget you needed to do the fix, possibly 50 posts "had I did that", "it worked for me" ," good idea" . The second reason to close many threads in the How To was so others couldn't put misinformation in the thread, or do a post totally unrelated / spam.

There were numerous threads in the open discussion forums that had links to the issues that were described in these invisible forums. So you would read how to lower your X300 motorcycle and if you wanted to know, click on the link--"no permission, registered members only" came up or something like that. So with all the forums open, and search functions works even for guests, why join or even log in--the lazy way. The problem is , without new posting, there is a decrease in what attracts people, the forum dies. Secondly , privacy, that Member Only/ Group Ride / Other Topics-, allowed for discussion that only logged in members could see , so the other topics allowed for that.
 

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Ramchargercentral
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The classified was not one of the invisible forums. There were 3 forums, one came from a previous request to join forum. As a motorcycle forum, several members were setting up a week long ride. To join in or view this forum, you needed to send a request in to administration and a super -mod would give permission. This forum / thread had phone numbers, ideas of where they would stay, directions of planned travel, who was possibly coming etc. So a forum was created Member Only/ Group Ride / Other Topics--this was only visible to logged in members. The other two invisible forums were How-To Forum ( technical how to) and Technical Discussions / How To Posts/ All Models.
So a little explanation as to why these last 2 were invisible to only registered logged in members, copyright is one of them, but largely to get more people registering and posting.
The technical discussions
contains identical technical info and was copied from the How To forum, it's sole purpose was to allow discussion and questions asked in reference to the How To forum which had most threads closed. Two reasons, one was you may need to go through 60 posts and 4 pages to find the answer as to what widget you needed to do the fix, possibly 50 posts "had I did that", "it worked for me" ," good idea" . The second reason to close many threads in the How To was so others couldn't put misinformation in the thread, or do a post totally unrelated / spam.


There were numerous threads in the open discussion forums that had links to the issues that were described in these invisible forums. So you would read how to lower your X300 motorcycle and if you wanted to know, click on the link--"no permission, registered members only" came up or something like that.
I changed the text color so others could read it.

In general, I agree with your using the invisible feature for this application, just posting this for others to have another idea that may work better for them.

With our build threads, many like the atta boys, good job, ect. and others do not, or some change as the thread gets older. Its work, but I will go through older pages and remove the extra posts when asked. It does look like the "Likes" are replacing such posts as we get more used to the new software. I probably go over board a bit, but I have been giving likes a lot to get more to see them, and hopefully carry on the idea.

[QUOTESo with all the forums open, and search functions works even for guests, why join or even log in--the lazy way. The problem is , without new posting, there is a decrease in what attracts people, the forum dies. Secondly , privacy, that Member Only/ Group Ride / Other Topics-, allowed for discussion that only logged in members could see , so the other topics allowed for that.][/QUOTE]

Interesting theory I have to think about that for a bit.
 

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VerticalScope
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I have a huge favor to ask of y'all. Let's make sure to stay on topic. :)

In our OneFora Community Chatter it is common for discussions to get off track and go a different direction just like conversations in "real life".

However, here in the
Product, Design & UX Feedback it is critical that we stay on topic so that the developers can easily track the feedback they have requested. In this case, they are specifically asking us for feedback on the classifieds. (Please see the 1st post in this thread.)
 

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I agree with all of this. We would need language placing all dispute responsibilities with the parties to the transaction. We would also need language specific to knowing local laws, FFL, etc.

Just my initial thoughts.
We have a Classified section on FirearmsTalk.COM. See attached. It's not very busy as you can see from the days listed. I agree that we need to have a very clearly worded, legally vetted, disclaimer separating FTF from any transactions. Participants in the Classified section should need to sign acceptance of this disclaimer in some legally verifiable way. There are too many ways for firearm transactions to fall afoul of the various federal/state/local laws.
FTFClassifieds.jpg
Help us get into the minds of users within your communities. Here are some questions to help get us started:
  • What would make a great experience for both buyers and sellers?
  • What type of items do you see users trading within your community?
  • What type of marketplace have you used before and enjoyed?
  • What rules would you want to see tied to classifieds?
  • How do you feel about a classified node?
  • What concerns do you have around SPAM?
  • Should classified listings be placed into any forum?
  • How important is buyer and seller reputation in classifieds?
  • Should a member be able to list any item or just specific items relevant to your community?
To be specific with feedback:
1. A great experience would occur if the transaction can be made reasonably simple. That goal is made more difficult by governmental requirements related to firearms transactions.
2. Mostly firearms related items (guns, holsters, belts, etc.)
3. I have not participated in the classifieds on FTF personally.
4. Rules tied to classifieds:
a. Meaningful level of participation (25 posts in technical section in last 30 days, for example)
b. Admin review and approval before being permitted to post for sale in classifieds
c. Acceptance of legal disclaimer absolving FTF of liability for any transactions.
5. We already have classified nodes (see above).
6. Spam is not much concern. Scamming is a concern. Legal liability is a concern.
7. Classified listings should be placed only in a restricted node so that FTF can ensure rules are followed.
8. Buyer/seller reputation is helpful. However, a first time Classified poster would be hard pressed to have any reputation within the Classified section. That's part of the purpose of requiring previous participation elsewhere.
9. We have a Non-firearms Classifieds section to enable members to offer things not directly relevant to firearms.
 

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This problem is escalating quickly on all sites and we're currently less prepared to combat it than in the past.

We're at the point when ANY user creates a buy/sell thread with "Wanted" or "WTB" in the title, they get PMs from scammers from new accounts that have little to no posts offering goods via unprotected payment methods.

Attempting to educate the members only goes so far. There will always be those that fall for this.

We can no longer ban regions like Nigeria
We can no longer as admins log into suspected scammer accounts to check PMs.
We can no longer click the one touch ban button to see that a new account has 0 posts but 39 private messages.
We can no longer prevent accounts with low post counts from sending PMs.

What can we do right now? These actions hurt the reputations of the sites and our inability to protect our members amplifies that.
The classifieds has always been 3 times the work of the whole site. Recently we had the criteria changed , something like 5 posts before you can post in classifieds. We have had new members try and skirt this, at least one was a scammer. Had posted that he was looking at buying a V1000, a month later he is posting a new Corbin seat for sale at half price, but in the general comments forum. He had contacted another member and he was shortly banned.
This is what we have in classifieds and a stuck thread:
For Sale Restrictions In Place Due To FRAUD within that thread ; Restrictions in place, you must have a minimum post count for posting in the classifieds and that applies to sending private messages which is now referred to as conversations. Someone trying to post a For Sale ( other than classifieds) and it is fraudulent, expect to be banned. This follows changes to Stromtrooper, multiple fraud , new member has a bargain, contacts a member and offers a deal$$$$ money changes hands but no deal and no easy trace of fraudster.
 

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Patrol4x4 Forum
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The classifieds has always been 3 times the work of the whole site. Recently we had the criteria changed , something like 5 posts before you can post in classifieds. We have had new members try and skirt this, at least one was a scammer. Had posted that he was looking at buying a V1000, a month later he is posting a new Corbin seat for sale at half price, but in the general comments forum. He had contacted another member and he was shortly banned.
This is what we have in classifieds and a stuck thread:
For Sale Restrictions In Place Due To FRAUD within that thread ; Restrictions in place, you must have a minimum post count for posting in the classifieds and that applies to sending private messages which is now referred to as conversations. Someone trying to post a For Sale ( other than classifieds) and it is fraudulent, expect to be banned. This follows changes to Stromtrooper, multiple fraud , new member has a bargain, contacts a member and offers a deal$$$$ money changes hands but no deal and no easy trace of fraudster.
That is all you can do, post warnings in various sections pointing out the dangers, we have well publicised the risk of scammers on P4x4, if someone gets caught it will be their own fault.
 

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ArcheryTalk.com
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I just logged in to capture that screen shot of a random member and there were 5 reported posts/threads in the que. Three of them were flat out scammers. They use tapatalk to get around the minimum post requirement, see the want to buy threads listed in our classifieds sections, send a message to the OP directing them to a buddy who has what they want at blablablah email address or phone, mostly email addy's and I know I have banned dozens and dozens of members that used one of the email addresses referenced just now. I do this multiple times a day, I'm just one of several who respond and act on the reported posts and conversations and this has been going on for years. It is really out of control right now, other than to inform our members, which we do and try to keep banning them as we find them, usually within hours of joining, they message someone and we get a report from the member.
 

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ArcheryTalk.com
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It truly is Tapatalk currently that is the biggest issue. Until that is resolved, it's all for little.

It really also requires that those forums be behind a wall, we used to be able to individually set that in the forum tree. The scammers just look in the classifieds and send messages. You don't even need to be logged in to see them, anyone who visits the forum can look at the classifieds. I understand the attraction part, but trust me when I tell you that once word gets out in the 'community', whatever it is, you will find that many will come to partake only of your classifieds listing and could care less about, some even frown when they have to, actually make posts in the discussion areas.

Feedback is also critical here, as it is a way for registered members to search out other members and review their feedback history. There is little trust anymore since we lost that, unless the two parties are long time members or at least members with a fair amount of post history that one can search out and really get a feel for who the person is. Newer members don't have that history yet, or just do thier 20 bs posts to get access to the classifieds and their post count remains stuck there, other than perhaps some posts in classifieds, but many are just there buying and will message others so they really don't build a searchable history even over time. This is why feedback is crucial!

I know of many that will presently not deal in our classifieds because of all of the scammers, no way to search all of the old feedback we had and there has been no feedback for a long time now. They lost their trust in the classfieds participants and we have had that for decades on our forum.

We also don't permit Paypal friends and family as forms of payment, it is expressly prohibited, as there is no paypal protection at all in those trades.
 

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One thing to keep in mind, fraud. Been there done that. I was on Ebay since it started, Paypal is an option, I have had a Visa card compromised twice by Facebook and I don't purchase anything off Facebook. I have had two fraudulent sellers that had Visa payment options in the last year. Very easy to set up a site, make it look legit then use information gained on that site and start another, that one offer something at a price of 80% of everyone else, then have it come from China, expect 30 to 60 days, by the time you realize it to be fraud, it may be too late. Save all websites with snip it, use contact within 10 days of purchase, don't be surprised if no reply happens, try every way to contact. Next contact your credit card company, make certain you save all emails sent.
The only way I would allow selling on the forum is a credit card or Paypal, no debit, no wire transfer, no Paypal friends and family. I would also have feedback for the buyer and the seller. Is it worth the trouble? Very easy to use someone else's photo, and once the buyer gets it and finds it different, what now, Paypal offers some protection, last time it depended on your individual use with PayPal as to what and how much was protected. There was a dollar limit, selling a car or motorcycle may be unprotected
 
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Until the day comes where you can track the exact physical address, the person behind the keyboard, there always will be a fraud. The real question is much like Kijiji in Canada, police suggest completing transactions say in their parking lot. Getting license plate numbers, before you pass on the goods, don't accept a check, just recently a person met with a phone for sale, the person didn't get out of the car, wanted to see the phone, and the passenger took it, then the driver gunned the car and the plate was covered up. Too late!!

In the last year with the software change, it is more difficult. There is no mandatory posting in the member intro forum. Many times it became obvious that the person posting didn't own a motorcycle and was a fraud. To comply with Facebook that mandatory first post and 24 hours was removed. Big difference, Facebook is social media where you can decide who views your post, friends or family, we get spammers posting in every forum possible, just to hide and get their post count up, once missed, it could take months to find these spammers, by that time the 30-day ban and clean is no longer operational, so the spam info is lost as well.
I am a fan of long-time, multi-post members being able to sell things related to the site, along with a feedback forum. In the last 12 months, we have had many 1 and 3 post members, post and never to be seen again. So the minimum post count to post in classified was enabled in June 2021
 

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Discussion Starter · #95 ·
I've suspected this marriage with Facebook is going to cause a big case of worms myself but apparently that's good to someone or thing. It certainly won't be for mods and admins.
Are we referring to Facebook login? Does it appear there are more scams coming through Facebook users?
 

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Strictly to answer your question and trying to stay on topic, my experience is strictly not in purchasing items, but in fraud from people buying on Facebook and fraudulent posters. If they can post fraudulently on FaceBook, VS Forums are just a step away. Twice had my Visa card compromised, how it came about, definitely not something I did. A short explanation by the fraud team at Visa, I was told someone captures your card informaation, sells it cheap and the rest is history. The location was Mississauga Ontario, that was all the fraud team told me, besides telling me a new card was in the mail.
Facebook is known to be rife with scammers, misinformation, and Phishing. Especially in the classifieds.
To be clear as noted a few times in the past the Facebook registration is just used to verify the user's email and account. It is not allowing any scammers in.

If you have any more questions or concerns about the Facebook log in
please see this thread.

Jeff
 

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I clarified my post above, as it could be taken differently.
 
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Are we referring to Facebook login? Does it appear there are more scams coming through Facebook users?
I can't say I'm seeing more scams but I am seeing more new members that appear to not read the rules of the site which is indeed causing more problems. It might just be a trend or it could be FB, unknown at this time but that's what I'm seeing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #100 ·
we get spammers posting in every forum possible, just to hide and get their post count up, once missed, it could take months to find these spammers, by that time the 30-day ban and clean is no longer operational, so the spam info is lost as well.
Other than post count and member days, has anyone seen or heard of innovative ways to reduce fraud with new members?
 
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